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Post Info TOPIC: Tampered data is our main problem


Teaching the truth

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Tampered data is our main problem
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I did not say that you were spouting off, I said that you MIGHT have been just spouting off if you had been someone who did not know what they were talking about. As it happens you do know what you are talking about so, it hardly applies to you does it?

It is not really realistic nor likely that people are going to look up every term. Particularly when I (since it is me we are talking about) explained that I thought I knew what it meant. Why would I look up a term if I thought I knew what it meant? No-one does that. I realise now that I was wrong, but this is what I mean about not being tolerant. Yes, in other areas you have been patient and tolerant, but you do not appear to understand the nature of people.




-- Edited by Xenon on Thursday 5th of August 2010 03:49:32 PM

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Timewarp wrote:

OBrien, Thank you for your input and professional opinion and the explanation you have provided. Your expertise in the optical field is most welcome and it is a pleasure to have you onboard.



Timewarp,

I second your opinion, the value of other members expertise is often overlooked when forming our own opinion(s), I personally have had no problems understanding O'Brien posts and explanations, and indeed I have agreed with most he has written but members credentials need not be brought into a debate, I myself have a first aid certificate (amongst others) and can change a light bulb, but not once have I asked for a members credentials.

This forum was created to draw together intellectuals and individuals to research and discuss the many topics covered at this site, taking time to educate ourselves of the hardware involved not only helps us understand the images we look at, but can also produce more anomalies outside the field of view, and more often than not can help us understand the technical aspect being debated.

 



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One day the most stupid posts will be dried out or placed in a especial department.



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OBrien, Thank you for your input and professional opinion and the explanation you have provided. Your expertise in the optical field is most welcome and it is a pleasure to have you onboard.

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I have a record of consistently providing this forum with clear, detailed, and ultimately correct explanations of anomalies and users' questions (Prometheus and the F-Ring; MSL laser and RTG; Spirit Rock Abrasion Tool; Reports 185, 188, 190; Martian "snake" that turned out to be a cable; etc.). That history should allow you to guess that I was not just "spouting off." Since you stated some very opinionated but incorrect beliefs, and several times disbelievingly questioned where the infomation came from, I provided my credentials (as you suggested) to convince you that my explanation was valid and that in future you can rely on my knowledge in this area.

But do not fault me for failing to realize that you don't know what a word means, especially when the meaning could have been deduced from the context of the original quote. Optical imaging and analysis is a technical field; like any specialization it has its own jargon. If you're going to be involved in the field you need to learn the jargon to understand and be understood. I can't worry that users might not know every common technical term I use. If you don't know it, look it up.

And where do I not have tolerance? I think I have been more than tolerant in this case and others in providing  detailed explanations when users could have found the answers themselves with trivial effort. For instance, when you were so incredulous about the distortion of the HazCams, did you bother typing "distortion HazCam" into Google? If you did, you'd have found the referenced paper in the first few hits.

That paper, found at www.mwoa.org/SPIE_paper.pdf is a good reference paper and contains much useful information about the rover optical systems. It should be studied carefully by anyone attempting to decipher the details of one of the rover images.

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Teaching the truth

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Ok, fair enough, but until someone discloses their professional position, knowledge, etc, how are we supposed to guess what you say is in fact, correct? As far as we know prior to this, you could be anyone just spouting off. The other point you forget is that you know the correct terms for these things which most other people do not. It is a misunderstanding of the proper meaning of the word distortion. You know what it means and you were using it correctly, I thought I knew what it meant and I was misunderstanding it. Try to have some tolerance with people who are not as expert in your field as you are. I appreciate you explaining things. Thankyou.

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qmantoo wrote:

yes, but where do you find this information?

These are essentially scientific instruments and MUST be relied apon to give accurate representations of the terrain - otherwise the rovers may be steered over a cliff or something.

I cannot help but think it is unlikely that any of the cameras sent to Mars would have distortions in their lenses because then scientists or mission controllers could not rely on the images returned. Please prove me wrong.




Reference:
Optical designs for the Mars '03 rover cameras; Gregory H. Smith, Edward C. Hagerott, Lawrence M. Scherr, Kenneth E. Herkenhoff, and James F. Bell III; Proc. SPIE 4441, 118 (2001)

"In the lower part of both ends of the rover, there are stereo pairs of hazard avoidance cameras (HazCams). One pair faces
forward, and one pair faces rearward. The stereo separation is 100 mm. These cameras are part of the on-board autonomous
navigation system; their purpose is to reveal dangerous objects in the path of the rover as it drives in either direction. The
diagonal field of view of each camera is 180 degrees, a full hemisphere. For such an extremely wide field, conventional f-tanθ
distortion correction is impossible. Thus, the HazCam lenses are full-frame fisheye lenses.

In a fisheye lens, the image geometry is of the f-θ type, that is, equal meridional angle increments in the object scene are
mapped (ideally) as equal linear increments on the image plane. When looking at the whole scene, a fisheye lens unavoidably
produces a great amount of barrel distortion.
This distortion is actually just the consequence of projecting a hemisphere onto a
plane. Of course, the projection function can be calibrated. But of more practical importance, small parts of the scene, even
those near the field edge, are imaged quite accurately without needing a lot of subsequent image processing. For the
HazCams, f-θ mapping will be very effective.
The usable field coverage of the HazCam lenses is 180 degrees across the diagonal of the square CCD format, and 124
degrees from side to side. The lens focal length is 5.58 mm in the center of the field. The HazCams operate at f/15, view
objects whose distances range from infinity to 200 mm, and are fixed-focused at 400 mm. They are monochrome systems; as
with the NavCams, a pair of absorption filters (Schott OG590 and KG5) working in series gives a reddish waveband
extending from roughly 0.60 μm to 0.80 μm. With their internal location, absorption filters rather than quasi-reflective
interference filters were selected to reduce stray light."


The distortion is apparent in the ZEMAX model analysis, both in the raytrace layout, and in the locations in the image plane of the spot diagrams for the 0, 30, 60, and 90 degree cases.

Picture 37.png

But most clearly apparent to optical system novices, the distortion is obvious when looking at any of the images.

2F319371241EFFB27MP1214R0M1.JPG

Image ref: 2F319371241EFFB27MP1214R0M1

In a distortion-free optical system, the horizon would be a straight line across the image (aside from the slight rises of the hills in the distance). In this image, the horizon grossly bulges upward. In a distortion-free system, the edge of the rover with its cables at the bottom would be a straight line across the image. In this image, it grossly bulges downward.

This distortion is obvious to even the most casual observer.

This is called "barrel distortion" and it's what happens when you use a fisheye lens to capture a very wide field of view as in the image below:

2447118612_2bc88db36f.jpg

The HazCams have a 180 degree (diagonal) field of view so that they can capture a very wide field of view to detect potential hazards.

Your assertions about what the instruments MUST do, and the data the scientists and mission controllers require are based on your own limited knowledge of the instruments, requirements, goals, and methods used.

I have stressed before, and cannot stress enough, educate yourself about the specifications and capabilities of the instruments that take these images. It is folly to dissect the image without having a VERY clear understanding of the workings of the camera that produced it.

And when it comes to this particular discipline, you'd do well to listen to an expert in the field. I am a professional optical system and lens designer. I use the same software in my profession that produced the layout and spot diagrams above. If I cared to, I have the optical prescriptions for all the rover cameras and could model them and analyze their performance to the level that the original designers did. I have made over $1.5 million USD in the course of my career in this line of work. So when I say I know something about cameras or lenses or images or film or CCDs or pushbroom imagers or shadows or light or the direction of the sun in an image, I speak from a position of considerable professional authority.

 

 



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Teaching the truth

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yes, but where do you find this information?

These are essentially scientific instruments and MUST be relied apon to give accurate representations of the terrain - otherwise the rovers may be steered over a cliff or something.

I cannot help but think it is unlikely that any of the cameras sent to Mars would have distortions in their lenses because then scientists or mission controllers could not rely on the images returned. Please prove me wrong.

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Sorry. Slip of the fingers. These images are from the HazCams, not the NavCams. The HazCams have a lot of distortion. The Navcams have < 0.03% distortion.

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Also, the NavCams have lenses with a lot of distortion. references please !!!

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And I can say conclusively, with 100% certainty, that the image Iceman used has been manipulated from its original state.

(And so should you.)

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2F319371918ESFB27MP1162L0M1 is a poor choice to use for this analysis. The glare is much greater than for the two other NavCam images taken on that day.

The other two images, 2F319371241EFFB27MP1214L0M1 and 2F319371241EFFB27MP1214R0M1 are a much better choice, because they can be combined to make a 3D image. When this is done, the area shows nothing unusual ... the little Swiss chalet is just a flat piece of ground.

Also, the NavCams have lenses with a lot of distortion. The little Swiss chalet that Iceman has faked into the image appears perfectly aligned to the edges of the image. But at that point in the image, the ground is significantly misaligned from the edges of the image, both from the distortion and from the tilt of Spirit.

So if it is a little tiny chalet, it's no longer upright, it's tipped by about 20 degrees. One wonders whether it is structurally sound enough to remain in one piece having been tipped and uprooted so violently.

Picture 36.png

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Teaching the truth

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Whereas I think the picture could have been manipulated and changed by hand, it is more likely to be a natural result of image compression and the stuff they do to the images before we get them. It is VERY unlikely that any other species will have a dwelling structure identical to the ones we use. C'mon, get real.

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I would figure something like this if I had something in hand to that effect.

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So..... has this particular image been tapered with or not?

I am sure that there are some people on the forum and casual viewers who are experts at using graphic programs and applications who should be able to spot the changes to the pixel texture around the area in question if there has been any form of alteration.

It has been proposed there is a built structure in the image that has been 'covered up' by some form of manipulation to the image. If this structure does exist, then it proves that whoever built are members of a very tiny species. 

On the other hand, if it can be confirmed that no manipulation of the image has taken place then we will just have to search for more evidence of a life existence and examples of their handiwork.

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Teaching the truth

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SP - isn't that fence you are sitting on getting rather uncomfortable? You have been sitting on it for quite a while now smile.gif

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It looks like something may be blurred out there...then again....maybe not

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OBrien wrote:

Yes, after looking at the images in this thread, I would agree that tampered data is a huge problem.




Most of the people interested in space imagery are aware space images are manipulated before releasing them to the public.

If we could not use graphic software to scan for traces of blunders left from previous manipulation we would be at a disadvantageous standstill, and running in a figure of 8.

So although the images from space are still worshiped as sacred by some, those aware of the game, should use them as another tool in the box, to see through the tampering, and discover what was it they most likely were trying to hide.

 

Nothing wrong in it. disbelief

 

 

-- Frutty



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Yes, after looking at the images in this thread, I would agree that tampered data is a huge problem.

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ICEMAN wrote:

 

goggog wrote: Martini Hotel. Excellent work

Thank you goggog, your words show me how much power we have if we all work together. Thank you.

I forgot the URL of the source it's here :

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/forward_hazcam/2010-02-13/2F319371918ESFB27MP1162L0M1.JPG

(Tropical Dunes Martian resort)

 




Mars Struc.jpg



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goggog wrote: Martini Hotel. Excellent work

Thank you goggog, your words show me how much power we have if we all work together. Thank you.

I forgot the URL of the source it's here :

http://qt.exploratorium.edu/mars/spirit/forward_hazcam/2010-02-13/2F319371918ESFB27MP1162L0M1.JPG

(Tropical Dunes Martian resort)



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goggog wrote:

Hotel Martian. Excellent workhandshake.gif




Tropical Dunes Martian resort smile



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Teaching the truth

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Hotel Martian. Excellent workhandshake.gif

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2F319371918ESFB27MP1162L0M1-focus.jpg

Tampered data is our main problem and the real tool we have to understand this is our brain. This requires extensive and detailed work, we need to focus on it and be open to the unexpected

2F319371918ESFB27MP1162L0M1-Cut1-comparasions.JPG

Here I show one example of pure cultural forms so men can understand what I am talking about.

Tampered inage230.jpg

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